MPs clashed over the future of hi-tech gambling machines yesterday at the start of debate on a new bill to ban the importation of the machines and spare parts.

But they passed the Prohibition of the Importation of Gaming Equipment Act after its second reading in the House of Assembly.

Health and Social Services Minister Nelson Bascome said Government aimed to "grandfather'' these machines out.

And he accused the former Government of ignoring the problem of electronic gambling in pubs and clubs for years.

He added that bringing in spare parts for the machines was illegal under the bill -- and he warned against anyone trying it, following claims by the Opposition that the temptation to cheat would be too great.

Mr. Bascome said: "We're moving in a way the previous Government did not do.'' Shadow Youth and Sport Minister Patricia Gordon Pamplin admitted she played the machines -- but with low stakes.

And she added that allowing existing machines to continue, while banning further imports and the bringing of spare parts was a halfway measure.

She said: "I believe that Government has firmly impaled us on the horns of a dilemma.'' Mrs. Gordon Pamplin added: "There is a difference between a gambler and somebody who is looking for entertainment.'' She explained that machines took one percent of the total take to run up to a jackpot of $4,000 on high stakes games and a win meant a reset to a $1,000 jackpot.

Mrs. Gordon Pamplin added that meant a total take of $300,000 on a single machine.

And she said allowing the machines to continue without legislation to protect users was leaving the public open to being fleeced by cheating operators who rigged the odds.

Mrs. Gordon Pamplin said: "Where I have a problem is that these machines can be recalibrated at will.'' She added: "I'm not a jackpot person -- you're not going to win a jackpot on 25 cents -- but if I did go mad, I want to know I will have a chance of winning the jackpot.'' And she said: "They haven't taken account of how the unsuspecting public might be affected.'' Mrs. Gordon Pamplin added that children were protected from the machines because they were in pubs and clubs where youngsters had no access.

But she said: "There is nothing to prevent an operator putting machines into a greasy spoon restaurant -- which would be open to young people.'' And she added that a ban on spare parts could easily be dodged, because computer components were sometimes unidentifiable and often interchangeable.

Shadow Environment Minister Gary Pitman said: "My concern also is that the youth of today has enough problems.

"We hear about the youth going into these bars and being served underage. In some bars, I've heard, you can also get as much drugs as you like.'' And he insisted: "The only respectable place for these machines is the airport -- buried in reclaimed land.'' Dale Butler (PLP) admitted he had no knowledge of the gaming machines -- and no interest in playing them.

He said: "I guess the bigger issue would probably be to have a debate, a take note motion perhaps, on gambling in this country rather than having a debate on this particular Act.'' But he added that Bermudians could have a split personality when it came to gaming machines -- they did not want them in Bermuda, but would take advantage of them themselves while abroad.

And he said: "One thousand machines is a lot of machines and if we're looking at that kind of profit, we have to look at what is happening in our society.'' Mr. Butler added that some of his constituents who had lost their pay cheques on gambling machines had called him to say they enjoyed playing -- but also called for a ban to prevent people losing their shirts on them.

Opposition Legislative Affairs spokesman John Barritt agreed with Mr. Butler that some would say Bermudians had a "hypocritical'' attitude to things they enjoyed overseas when it came to having the same things on the Island.

And he admitted: "It's clear to me that during our tenure we were flip-flopping back and forward between definitions in the Lotteries Act and the Liquor Licensing Act.'' Mr. Barritt also called for "a sunset clause'' -- a firm date when gambling machines would be banned outright.

He added that threats of action for damages by operators denied the use of their machines might have difficulty in the courts.

Mr. Barritt -- a lawyer -- said: "Profits are large and they would have to prove they had not recouped their investment.'' And he pointed out: "If one now considers what's available over the Internet, we don't need Lottery Acts anymore.

"You can get on the Internet and gamble in a big way -- perhaps we ought to look at having a debate on this whole issue.'' And he asked the Premier to consider taking the bill back and adding in a "sunset clause and not leaving it to chance''.

Mr. Barritt added: "It's too vague -- we should put a time limit on it.'' While he praised the PLP for making an attempt to regulate Bermuda's gambling problem, he said they were being "silent'' about the ones which were already here.

"Something needs to be done about them,'' he stressed. "Even if they are allowed to run for the rest of their lives, there needs to be some restrictions on how the machines are operated.'' Mr. Barritt referred to the fact that such machines "can be recalibrated'' to make it easier or harder to win at them.

"If this bill is serious about dealing with the problem of gambling,'' he said, "then I would have thought it would have gone further in dealing with machines that are already here.

"I don't want to sound too righteous or moralising but the bill as it is now wouldn't really have done away with gambling on its own.'' Shadow Finance Minister Grant Gibbons said: "I have to say the Government deserve some credit for bringing the legislation forward in the first place.

"But I just don't think this bill goes far enough. It doesn't adequately address the issue of those machines that are already here.'' Dr. Gibbons referred to the fact that he felt the operation of the machines needed to be regulated or even banned completely.

"Without that, they are like fishpots which have lost their buoys,'' he said.

"They keep on killing without any controls.

"It's just not sufficient to say that they'll be left to live out their lives. I'll use the example of Cuba, which banned the importation of American cars in the 1950s. Now Cuba is literally a museum of old cars. It's the same with gambling machines. In 30 years, they'll still be here for our children and grandchildren to see.'' Dr. Gibbons also pointed to the fact that many Bermudians were addicted to using gambling machines and "are throwing away their rent money'' to try and strike it lucky.

He added that it was mostly people in the lower income bracket that were affected by gambling machines in this way.

"It's not good enough to say that these machines will peter out over the next ten to 15 years. Government needs to take a good look at the legislation and make a few changes to it.'' Shadow Health Minister Kim Young said: "There are some difficult social issues attached with gambling and I'm glad that these are being recognised.

"However, this bill is hypocritical. Making it legal to gamble on the machines already here, but illegal to bring in spare parts will only encourage unlawful behaviour in the community.

"And it seems that Government is gambling on the fact that these machines will break down soon. In fact they have wimped out by not saying that those machines should go too.'' Ms Young referred to the way guns were made illegal on the Island years ago, saying that if people had been not allowed to import guns but allowed to keep the ones they already had, it would have been "ridiculous''.

"They are trying to please all of the people all of the time and they should know that this never works out,'' she said.

On the other side of the House, Environment Minister Arthur Hodgson pointed to the fact that "this Government has done more to solve the issue of gambling than the previous Government ever did''.

He also expressed regret at the fact that the Opposition was not "standing shoulder to shoulder with us on this one''.

"They seem to be firmly in agreement with the bill in principle,'' he said, "but I wish they would also take their place at our side on this one and support us instead of attacking our efforts.'' Mr. Hodgson defended the fact that machines already on the Island were being left alone, saying: "We cannot move any further or faster than the people are willing to go, especially if the other side isn't willing to get on board with us.'' Calling the Environment Minister a "spin doctor'', Shadow Transport Minister Erwin Adderley said: "This is an ill-conceived bill. They just haven't thought it through properly.

"We would like to see a sunset clause be added on to the end of it either notifying owners of machines that they will have to be gone by a certain date or putting some sort of regulations on their usage.'' "Of course,'' Mr. Adderley added, "I would have thought these sorts of things were basic and fundamental. Did they never think of them?'' He noted that the bill did not create any regulations for where the machines are sold.

"They could be sold to locations where children frequent,'' he said.

Mr. Adderley also pointed out that many computer parts were standardised and that Customs officers would have no idea about whether they were being brought in for fixing gaming machines or just a personal computer.

"I tell you that gambling will still be in Bermuda 30 years from now because they would have illegalised machines but not the usage of the ones already here,'' he said.

"If they want our support on this bill, then they have to explain what reason they have for allowing the machines to stay in Bermuda.'' Attorney General Dame Lois Browne Evans said: "Well it seems you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. We have taken the first step in getting rid of a social evil and the Opposition hasn't done anything but damn us for it.'' She added that it had been three years since the United Bermuda Party Government first raised the issue of gaming machines.

"This is the first time the matter has been dealt with in this house. It's taken from 1996 until 1999 for us to be able to start filling that gap,'' she said.

Dame Lois explained her Government's strategy as "dealing with this issue in stages''.

"Before we make a sweeping law to illegalise everything we have to find out the particulars, such as how many people would be affected by the legislation and how exactly it would do so,'' she said.

"For us to complete that inquiry beforehand would take too much time.

However, as Mr. Butler pointed out earlier, you have to start somewhere.

"It's better to do a half measure than to do nothing at all, as the previous Government did.'' In reply to this Shadow Public Safety Minister Michael Dunkley asked: "So why don't they do it right, then?'' John Barritt Nelson Bascome Patricia Gordon Pamplin