whole pile of white people with wonderful university degrees and a few blacks who really were tokens and therefore we're going to try to push the numbers up and firms would be forced to hire unqualified blacks who have no background and all of that. But the stats don't show that.

The stats show the opposite. There are far more blacks percentage-wise in the community with university degrees and good training than whites.

And you look at the numbers here and say `why are these people in these job classifications when the university certificate degree, which is supposed to be the entry ticket, is being held by blacks in greater numbers?'.

So we are going to have to do a lot of work before we hit tokenism. We have a lot of qualified and capable people standing around right now saying `why hasn't it happened for me?' And hopefully it will start to happen for them.

----- But couldn't they still implement tokenism to keep the smart blacks out? At the end of the day there is a certain percentage of companies that are going to do the wrong thing in every set of circumstances. They just will do it. But there is a greater group that will say lead me to the water so that I can drink and that is our job. I want to concentrate on the greater figure rather than the minor figure.

I want to see us create a scenario where those companies that want to do the right thing, that are doing the right thing, that their numbers just keep growing.

So if we have 500 companies and in the first year we look at it 200 are doing a great job, I'm not so sure about the next 200 and this last 100, well they really bother me.

Then each year I want to see that first two hundred grow, the second 200 start to shift and the last one hundred grow as well and after a few years in the short term then we can step back and look at the makeup of that group and say what's the number, if it was 100 is it now down to 99 or 39 and then let's figure out what really going wrong in those companies and at that point we may well have to do something, but that's down the road and I would like to think that by the time we get down there the business community itself will stand up and say this is not flesh of my flesh.

There is reason for the business community to act like we're one, we're one group of people. If there's some doing the right thing some doing the wrong thing.

When we get down the road about 4 or five years the vast majority of companies will just be going about their business filling in their forms moving their employees forward, not even thinking about CURE but good people.

Now they are free to think in those terms they are not uncomfortable about putting blacks in the top of their organisations and those who don't do that will be regarded as people maybe you don't feel too good about.