The following is the conclusion to Friday, July 12's, debate on public education in the House of Assembly.

Government backbencher Delaey Robinson responded to the UBP's objections to the Bermuda Educators Council Act 2002, saying they were confusing the issues.

He claimed the bill was important in that it would improve standards in the profession and increase the esteem in which educators are held.

"In the past teachers were profoundly respected - that is no longer the case, " he said.

He said that the legislation was meant to jumpstart the process and the council will "run the show themselves".

Independence and autonomy will be ensured because only four members will eventually be appointed by the Minister, he added, leaving the "vast bulk to be appointed by the members".

The legislation itself sets the framework for registration of educators, not for licensing.

"Registration is the essential job, not certification and not licensing."

Referring to Shadow Education Minister Tim Smith's comments about the Code of Practice, Mr. Robinson pointed out that, unlike General Orders which regulates the relationship between employers and employees, the Council's Code of Practice was concerned with professional conduct not issues better dealt with by employers, like punctuality.

And he dismissed criticism that having principals and teachers on the Council will promote conflict, saying the council's role as the watchdogs of the profession would preclude debates properly left to the unions.

He noted that the council will evolve once underway and that it was not Government's role to legislate incentives.

"I would be surprised if the council didn't get on with providing incentives and rewards to its profession."

The fact that the Ministry was to appoint all the initial members "made sense". "The public will understand we had to make a start."

He acknowledged that the current legislation provided for a list of qualified educators, but said it was not published.

The council's register will be open for examination by parents, he said.

As for an appeal procedure, he said, that aggrieved people could always use the court system.

Mr. Robinson described the Code of Practice provision as "very timely for Bermuda parents concerned for their children. It will go a long way to address the concerns."

He added : "I think parents will like the idea that this body is several steps away from the Ministry. We like the idea that their is autonomy."

He also said that much of the council's business will be conducted in the open.

And he praised the exemption provisions, saying that people who had not gone to teachers training school but "had a lot to give" will not be excluded but given the opportunity to apply to the council for exemption from its requirements.

"These are positive steps which belie the complaint of bureaucracy. If anything it reduces bureaucracy," he said.

"Book learning does not a whole human being make. Students can learn from people other than teachers."

Shadow Legislative Affairs Minister John Barritt said he thought a teacher licensing scheme was laudable, and said he believed setting up a council by which the profession could Police itself was also a good thing.

But he said Government had not outlined why it believed the Bermuda Educator's Council Act was necessary and what the problems had been.

He said he was not asking Ms Cox to name teachers who were below standard, but was simply wanting to hear what the issues had been with the ability of teachers.

He said: "What was the problem that warrants this legislation, and that warrants our time, and warrants our taxpayers' money.

"The time has come to stop pussy footing around on what the problem is. You ought to say it."

But Mr. Barritt said he doubted that the new act would solve many problems in education, and he asked how the council would improve the educational standards and Bermuda's children.

He said he agreed with Shadow Education Minister Tim Smith when he said teachers were already certified to teach by the Ministry, and the new council, as it stood in the legislation, would add very little.

He said there were other, more major issues, such as discipline and results, which needed the Government's attention.

Mr. Barritt asked whether the Ministry of Education felt it had failed in its responsibility to ensure teachers were able to teach, so it was looking to slide the responsibility across to the Educators' Council.

He added: "The Minister (Paula Cox) went to pains to explain that the council will deal with the conduct of teachers."

However, he said Ms Cox had informed the house that some issues, such as punctuality, would be dealt with by the principals.

But Mr. Barritt said principals should not have to consider whether they or the council should deal with conduct matters.

He added: "Are we going to end up with ball bouncing between the two, or worse of all, paralysis."

Mr. Barritt said he believed schools and teachers needed more autonomy to teach the students they had, and more support from Government when they had to deal with discipline.

He said he had heard mixed reports about the performance and accountability of some principals. Some were regularly doing reports and development of staff, while others were not.

And he said he did not agree with members of Government who said those in education, including the Bermuda Union of Teachers, had been consulted widely.

And he said he hoped the Ministry was simply not handing the issue and the responsibility over to the Educators' Council, once it was set up.

He added: "What teachers need is more respect, and I'm not sure we are necessarily giving it to them today by passing this piece of paper. What we need is pay and incentives."

He added: "We need to support our teachers when it comes to these teaching issues. That's where I think the greatest need lies.

"We are going to have a registry of teachers. Whoopeedoo! The question is, how does this deal with the number one problem we have in education today."

And he said he believed the proposed legislation was purely a move by the Minister, who has only held her role since November last year, to keep a promise that had been made by previous Education Minister Milton Scott, particularly as a General Election could be looming.

But Government backbencher Arthur Hodgson said he, like Minister Cox, did not believe this piece of legislation was the most important thing to happen to education, but he said it was positive and he supported it.

And he said it was always difficult for governments when it came to the issue of consultation, because even though parties may have been consulted on an issue over a number of years, people would still claim they had not been consulted.

However, Mr. Hodgson said he believed the education system was flawed and needed immediate attention, particularly when it came to curriculum and discipline.

And he said while he believed in trained teachers, he felt that experience and a natural ability to teach and control the classroom often counted for much more.

He said he "had some reservations about the worth of this legislation" after seeing so many good teachers forced out during the 60s because somebody in Government had deemed them to be insufficiently trained.

But he said many professions now had a body that they were certified into and that represented them, such as the Bar Council for lawyers and medical associations for doctors, and they did provide a role.

He said one of the main reasons the councils existed was so that the public could judge and assess the person who was offering a service.

But Mr. Hodgson said he believed in a system where teachers were paid for their results with students and not what teachers had on paper, or their years in the job.

And he said he strongly believed in a system of small community schools, where families bought into the future of the school and took an active role in their running.

Corporal punishment, as well, was another thing he thought should be used in schools to instil some discipline into students and put order back into the classroom.

Nowadays, he said children suffered too many "traumas" when they were repeatedly moved from one school to another, sometimes quite a distance from their homes.

And the backbencher said he did not agree with the BUT and others who had called on senior members of the Ministry to also be licensed. He said he believed that licensing them would ensure they could do the job properly.

He said: "That's one of the complaints the teachers' union has. I'm not sure I have that complaint because I recognise very often that people have a whole bunch of papers in their pocket because they can't perform."

And he said a part of judging the quality of a teacher was judging their ability to keep order in the classroom.

However, he said he believed the curriculum needed to be started from scratch to make it more Bermudian, with Bermudian history and culture.

He said in the past, the school system has been overwhelmed with foreign teachers who failed to appreciate Bermuda's cultural differences, and therefore failed to instil them into students.

Things such as saying "good morning" to strangers, which is part of Bermuda's tourist attraction and part of its culture, have not been taught, he said.

And Mr. Hodgson said Bermuda needed to find its own identity and teach it to students, instead of continuing in the colonial way of the past.

But he also said any professional body set up should address the character of teachers - or the lack of it.

He added: "One of the reasons there is a lesser respect today for teachers than there was is because we get fewer of their character.

"When I was in school (as a teacher), you could not find a teachers who was smoking or getting pregnant when they weren't married. How do we address the question of character. I submit that this, too, is not so much about registration. I doubt the council can regulate character, but the employer can.

"It's a problem that we don't have to the same degree in the private schools because the private schools are able to exercise some kind of discipline for teachers."

And he again, he reiterated his point about the curriculum.

He said: "The curriculum for our schools has to be done from scratch. It's far more important than the bricks and mortar we are spending thousands of dollars on.

"I certainly hope the Minister will develop a curriculum. Its a gigantic job and it needs to be done now. It's going to require resources to be done."

The Opposition's Jamahl Simmons said the Government was trying to keep a promise over teacher licensing that it made in the Throne Speech of 2000 when it had not yet met all of the promises it made in its election platform.

Among them he said was improving health and safety in schools, encouraging discipline, having elective boards instead of appointed, and encourage a more formal approach to the development of moral standards and character in the classroom.

He said: "Why are we making new promises and not keeping the old ones. Why do we have to come back every Friday to this House and discuss the Progressive Labour Party's lack of ability in consultation?

"There is something tragically wrong with the consultative process. We have had three (education) Ministers in this term. This is unacceptable. When we are trying to deal with the most important thing for our children, this is not acceptable."

And Mr. Simmons said the principle of teacher licensing was a good one, but Government had to be very clear on how it would improve education.

And he said the bill was "poorly thought through legislation".

He added: "The Bermuda Union of Teachers and the Association of School Principals have raised very serious concerns. They are not happy with this bill as it's structured."

And he asked that if the people who were supposed to enforce the act did not fully agree with it, how was it going to be effective.

He added: "There is a lack of detailed criteria on what a teacher needs to do to be an effective; licensed teacher."

Mr. Simmons said the Government needed to entice teachers into the post and then keep them there.

But he said many were voting with their feet and turning to alternative careers because of lack of pay, poor security in schools, stress and lack of support.

However, he also said parents had to be made more accountable.

He added: "Certifying teachers is a good cause. We already do it. But unless they have the tools they need, and the curriculum we are wasting our time. This bill does not guarantee.

"I hope we can get more details on how this can can improve the education of children."

Government backbencher Neletha Butterfield said she felt compelled to respond to Mr. Simmons comments because she felt much of what he had said was untrue.

She said Government had delivered on many of its platform promises, especially when it came to education.

And she said when it came to incentives for teachers, it was difficult for Government to legislate for them, but she hoped the educators council would consider them.

But education, she said, had to start in the home and it was "parents who were the key to most of the success of young people".

Ms Butterfield said she believed the council and the register of teachers would be excellent for parents because she was often called by parents wanting information on their children's teachers.

However, she said, too often, it was the same parents who showed interest in their children's education, but a large proportion did not.

She said: "At PTA meetings, its always the same parents every time. You can call, you can send a note", but she said still some parents did not respond to teachers' concerns.

"Parents need a lot of guidance in this, as well as they definitely need to come out of denial. Not all, but the vast majority.

"Too many parents leave the educating up to the teachers. This is why so many teachers do get burned out today."

And she said in much of the debate on the licensing issue, few people in the House had actually talked about the matter, instead choosing to discuss other areas of education.

She noted that times are changing and with it children's behaviour and the curriculum.

She indicated that in the past she and her colleagues had worked out maths problems on paper but now a requirement of many programmes is a scientific calculator.

Opposition House Leader Maxwell Burgess said that the first thing to determine before discussions on what standards are needed from teachers, is what is wanted from students.

However he said that he did not believe the register would help the end product of a better student since the Act did not address the end product.

He stressed that all children are owed is a first class education.

"This does not cut it. This does not give our children one more shot at a better education."

On the other hand, he said that members of the private sector should also be included in the council as they have input as to what level of education they want from the people they will hire.

And he said that the council should be independent and that the members should be free.

Mr. Burgess said: "Let the order come back to this place and tell us whether we are making the mark or not."

And he said that a registry for registry's sake makes no sense.

"If we are really into international business and international tourism why don't we have this group accredited by an international group."

While making his comments, Mr. Burgess also addressed the need for parents to play a role in the assurance of their children's education.

And he called for each child to be enabled to reach his or her full potential regardless of what that is.

"We've got to say that if Johnny's full potential is to become a first class carpenter let's do what needs to be done to ensure that he becomes a first class carpenter."

Mr. Burgess also said that pleas of many teachers trying to continue their education has fallen on deaf ears. "That attitude needs to change now," he said.

He also said that what should have been addressed is what would be done for teachers who could not meet the standards.

Opposition MP Alan Marshall said that while the objectives were noble the question remained on whether the bill would achieve the objectives.

He also said that he believed in the KISS principle - keep it simple stupid. and said the bill would create bureaucracy and a lot of red tape.

In reference to the idea that the bill is expected to raise standards of teaching in the schools he said: "Why wait until teachers are in schools to raise standards? Why not ensure they are the best when they return from training?"

And he offered research he had completed on a USnews.com website. He said that the rankings were for the US but that he it could be done in other jurisdictions.

He said that the website was interesting because it ranks schools and allows users to do an advanced search using different criteria.

He said he tried a number of different scenarios which brought out the criteria he was interested in - selective, an education major, and a teaching certificate.

"It actually says where you can go to a least selective schools where you don't care about the quality.

"Fifty-six came back in the least selective category and some of these schools I think will be shocking where they rank."

He said that in the most selective category there was a list of 24 schools many of which were Ivy League schools.

"The point I'm trying to make here is it's clear to me that if we are going to use the KISS principle we only need teachers that receive their qualifications at A list schools.

"If our people can't afford to attend some of the schools we need to make a decision to subsidise their education."

And he asked about liberal arts schools where teachers might obtain a first degree and then earn a teaching certificate. In that category their were 54 highly selective schools which included Harvard, Princeton and Duke universities.

He noted that the website which had been produced by the free market and not through a council that would take money from tax payers.

In the end he said that what will matter is how prepared teachers are when they start their work in the schools.

And he said that we will know that we are getting the best teachers if they are going to the best schools.

"It is how prepared they are that is going to make a difference.

"This council is not going to be able to deliver the goods at the end of the day," he said.

Transport Minister Dr. Ewart Brown said that one should be extremely careful with lists of schools because lists are flawed.

He said that there are so many reasons why people choose a school and said that some of those schools may not come on the list of 24.

He said he wished and believed he was coming to the House to fine tune and tweak the legislation.

"I'm so delighted that this Ministry has had the foresight to put into place this kind of ground-level legislation," he said.

And he said that the first-class education that had been suggested by Mr. Burgess can be achieved once it is decided what that is for a country. He said education should satisfy the needs of the people.

Dr. Brown said: "There are so many people that can point to certificates and diplomas on the wall but cannot point to the practical application of their education."

Opposition MP Trevor Moniz said that the Government was missing the point.

"The history in Bermuda is that we have missed addressing the problems we face in the public education system head on," he said,

And he noted that in his conversations with teachers they feel that they are in the trenches.

"It's a tough job. It's an unpleasant job and the teachers get very little thanks."

And he said that the teachers he speaks to say that there is more bureaucracy but that the problems would not be solved by it.

He noted that in his own information he learned that 23 teachers were leaving CedarBridge this year.

And he said that students are not going to get an education if they become involved with some of the illicit activities happening in schools or if they are afraid to attend school because of those activities.

Premier Jennifer Smith said that the number of members who rose to address the bill indicated the importance they place on education.

And she noted that the idea behind the bill was put forward by the BUT when she served as the Minister of Education. She said Bermuda was a member of the real world and that in the real world teachers are certified.

"Teacher training does not a teacher make," she said. She said there was a recognition that teaching is an ever-evolving profession.

And she said the bill recognised educators as the professionals they are.

Patricia Gordon Pamplin said: "I think she must be aware that teachers are already certified."

And she commented on what Dr. Brown's had said in noting: "I think it is important to mention that there is no excuse to bring legislation that is initially weak to come back and have to fine tune and tweak it."

And she said that the new legislation will do nothing more than contribute to the impetus of teachers who leave the system.

However, she said that the one what got her attention was the requirement for continuing education.

In her concluding statement Education Minister Paula Cox stressed that she never said the bill would solve all of the problems with education.

"Only a fool would say this," she said.

And she confessed she was saddened and disappointed that the opposition did not see fit to support the bill.

"Sometimes imagery and symbolism is just as important as the tangible. What we have done is infuse the symbolism and the tangible," she said.

Shadow Education Minister Tim Smith questioned why a fine of $5,000 had been decided for teachers who taught without being licensed, when other fines on similar bodies were much less.

He said he still failed to understand why Government did not want to make a qualifying exam part of the criteria; and asked would the register of teachers be available to the public, as other registers are, as well as being listed in the press.

Other concerns he had related to the high number of teachers on the council, in relation to the two principals and said he feared it would cause conflict between the two when issues of conduct and hearings over teacher misconduct arose.

Mr. Smith said he also believed the 15 members on the council would be too unwieldy, and suggested it have fewer, like on similar councils.

The Shadow Minister also said he believed separate Codes of Practise should be written for teachers and principals, rather than just one, and suggested that every member be given a copy as soon as they qualified, so they knew what code they were adhering to.

Ms Cox said she believed the $5,000 fine would be a good deterrent to prevent teachers from working without a license.

And she said she believed the 15 members on the council was representative of the number of private and public teachers on the Island, which amounted to more than 1,000.

But on the issue of whether a qualifying exam should be part of the licensing criteria, she said she believed "it was for wiser heads than I to decide if there is really a need for that."

Ms Cox said principals from both private and public education had voiced concerns about putting "another hurdle" in the way of teachers when the profession was already low on staff.

But she said much of the framework and detail would be down to the council, which would be made up of a broad base of educators, including the Bermuda Union of Teachers and the Association of School Principals.

Ms Cox also said she did not foresee a list of registered names appearing in the newspaper once a year, but said parents would be able to find out if particular teachers were registered.

And she said although there would only be one Code of Practise, it may contain different paragraphs that related solely to principals and teachers.

To a claim by Mr. Smith that the Minister was "tiptoeing through the tulips" over the issue, being precise in some areas and vague in others, she said: "I'm being circumspect as to the decisions of the council.

"As we get into the more tricky issues that are more sensitive, then as we are setting up a council, then that is their remit."

The United Bermuda Party did not support the bill, but the legislation to allow for an educators council and licensing of teachers was passed.