SPEAKS HIS MIND Environment Minister Arthur Hodgson's state- ment on Wednesday sparked controversy after he said foreigners were taking the country over. Reporter Matthew Taylor talked to environmentalist Stuart Hayward about this.

Question: What did you think about Mr. Hodgson's statement? Answer: It's healthy we have somebody in the leadership in a position to talk about it openly. The proportions of non-Bermudians is unique. Look at the USA. The proportion is far lower than here but it has caused a severe backlash.

Foreigners have had a bigger impact on the job market and on local culture here than in the US because there is a greater population of foreigners so one would anticipate that in Bermuda with a greater proportion of foreigners we'd see a similar reaction. It's an issue of cultural integrity -- it's not a complaint, it's a fact -- given this proportion there'll be reaction.

Q: Is that reaction justified? A: When people feel threatened then the threat becomes a reality. If they feel overwhelmed then they are overwhelmed.

Q: Is the number of foreigners here a problem? A: I think it is. But let me say immediately that I have no problem with foreigners per se. The problem is the proportion we have.

Q: If you have a problem with too many foreigners how do you rectify it? A: In the bluntest of terms you might decide that five to ten percent of your workforce would be all a culture could withstand.

Q: Is that your view? A: Well, I could hold that view. I think a figure of ten percent might be a starting point. You would gently move by attrition towards that figure. But it's not that simple. There are no native Bermudians, everybody came here from somewhere else. We've had influences from foreigners during all our history.

Q: Define Bermudian culture and how it's been affected by foreigners? A: I'm not sure I can define Bermudian culture but I can give you an example.

A Bermudian of my generation might potter along the road and if someone wanted to come out of a driveway we might let them. Someone from a big city might go faster and might be less inclined to let them out. There are lifestyle patterns, consumption habits, entertainment choices.

Q: You say you would consider reducing the foreign population to five to ten percent and then quote such a petty example such as road manners. It's not like you said the nation has had it's language obliterated by a foreign one.

A: But the major ones are easily seen but it's the minor ones that creep up on you, they collect and cause culture to be lost. It's not a deliberate cultural invasion but the weight of numbers impact on our culture.

Q: Are the differences between foreigners and Bermudians so great? A: I don't know. But the differences are worth looking at.

Q: But if you are considering reducing the foreign population shouldn't you be able to show that the differences are so great and you've lost so much? A: Not if you are a sovereign country. You don't have to give any reasons to anyone. Part of the problem is that Bermuda hasn't been sovereign.

Q: Shouldn't you start with independence first? A: The political realities don't alter the demographic facts. The elements which make up Bermudian culture are at risk of being lost.

Q: You think foreigners have done cultural damage but are you sure the cultural shifts wouldn't just carry on when they go? A: I'm fairly sure of that, but that is not to say it wouldn't increase in other ways. Some of the cultural influences have been very useful ones, but the weight of influence puts our cultural integrity at risk. Local culture is a synthesis of what was here before and what has come. I'd ask any non-Bermudian to think of the impact of the same proportion of non-locals in your country.

Q: It depends on your world view. Some people would argue that immigration in England in the 1950s improved the country, made it less dull. Immigration is restricted in England and Bermuda. But I don't know anyone in England apart from the far right who regret it. Isn't it inflammatory to say you regret the foreigners coming here? A: I don't know anyone who is saying that here. This is not about me addressing foreigners. It's about me commenting on a policy that allowed the situation to occur.

Q: This is semantics isn't it? If you were a foreigner living in Bermuda would you feel worried about being seen as unwanted? A: Hardly -- it happens. I spent six years in the US and the backlash against foreigners affected everybody and affected me even though I was asked to come there and I don't think anyone complained about the work I was doing.

Q: You've used comparisons with foreign countries to illustrate your points.

A: I am not here to castigate individuals. A country that discriminates racially is very different from a country protecting cultural integrity.

Q: Wasn't that the argument of right-wing politicians around the world -- they all say they are protecting culture. Few admit they are talking about race? A: But if they are talking about it with very small proportions of foreigners they are dealing with then the picture we have here is even more worth looking at. That's all I am saying.

Q: So that would seem to say that they are right and you are even more so? Are those people right or wrong? A: I don't like the way this is going. I don't like being compared with bigots. If you think what I am talking about is bigoted let's go back to the beginning. We are a very small island with a very small population and the bluebirds and kiskadees is a good example. The population of bluebirds is threatened by the population of kiskadees. They are out-competed so if you want to preserve the bluebirds you have to restrict the kiskadees.

Q: Nobody is saying let's pack the island like Hong Kong.

A: But that's it! Nobody says that -- it gets like that by incremental steps.

Nobody looked at New York City when it was Manhattan Island and transferred to the Dutch and thought it was going to be like it is today. Bermuda doesn't want to become Hong Kong or Singapore or New York. How do you stop that? You must be aware of the incremental steps, either by straightening a corner on a road or by allowing unrestricted entry by foreigners.

Q: But immigration is restricted -- why reduce the current foreign population? A: But I also want fewer Bermudians.

Q: What would your ideal number be? A: In the book Bermuda's Delicate Balance I think Dr. Sterrer worked it out that Bermuda could be self-sustaining if we had a population of 10,000. But does that mean you get rid of 50,000 people because 10,000 is the optimum? No, it means you have to recognise 64,000 number isn't self-sustaining.

Q: You would like to see it gradually reduced? A: I would move towards a sustainable country, a sustainable economy, a sustainable population level, sustainable values and sustainable lifestyles.

Speaking out: Stuart Hayward