yesterday as the House of Assembly debated estimates for the Ministry of Finance.

Government backbencher the Hon. Ann Cartwright DeCouto attacked Government on rising interest rates and promised legislation which had not been tabled in the House.

Mrs. Cartwright DeCouto noted that during the last Budget debate, Finance Minister the Hon. David Saul had said that the lifting of the interest rate ceiling "would bring interest rates down''.

"I never understood the logic of that,'' she said. In any event, mortgage rates had since risen on at least two occasions.

With American and Bermudian interest rates creeping up, "the question of usury is very, very much on my mind'', Mrs. Cartwright DeCouto said.

People who might be in a financial jam could feel forced into securing loans at "prohibitively high'' and "unconscionable'' interest rates.

Where was the truth in lending law that Dr. Saul had promised? Turning to the interest rates charged on Bermuda dollar credit cards, Mrs.

Cartwright DeCouto said they were between 18 and 20 percent. Many Bermudians ran their credit cards to the limit and only made the minimum monthly payment, she said.

The rates "in anybody's language, as far as I'm concerned, are immoral and usurious'', she said. And she called for legislation to prohibit such rates.

The MP said much of the "massaging'' of exchange controls that had been done recently was "under a cloak of secrecy, which is undesirable''.

Mrs. Cartwright DeCouto also said she found a "steady stream'' of directives sent out by the Bermuda Monetary Authority "almost indecipherable''.

She wanted an information package put together in layman's language for "Joe Q. Public'', and said it could also be advertised in the newspaper.

Finally, she wanted to know why there was a 31 percent cost increase for financial management and policy and a 120 percent increase for the Budget Office. "I would like to have a little more detailed explanation,'' she said.

In response, Dr. Saul said Mrs. Cartwright DeCouto's comments were not relevant while the House was in committee of supply.

And many of her comments were the same ones she made during the economic debate, he said. "It is not my intention to answer them for the second time.'' But he noted he had tabled in the House "factual statements'' from the BMA on interest rates.

"I note the concern from that honourable member about the banks putting up interest rates,'' Dr. Saul said. But Mrs. Cartwright DeCouto was "a director of one of those banks''. It was inside of that bank's boardroom that she "should do the fights on behalf of the Country''.

Shadow Finance Minister Mr. Eugene Cox said the Progressive Labour Party had exposed "cracks'' in the Budget and Government was making changes as a result. He asked whether the Premier and Finance Minister would consider giving the Opposition longer than one week to prepare its Budget Reply.

On the Base Transition Office -- which is listed under the Finance Ministry this year only -- Mr. Cox said the only information the Opposition was receiving came in the form of occasional lengthy statements in the House by Management and Technology Minister the Hon. Grant Gibbons .

The House was entitled to a detailed "interim report'' on the direction that was being taken.

Mr. Cox asked whether Bermudians who had worked at the Base were being used, or if Government had "gone overseas to get the same degree of expertise''.

He was glad to see $100,000 had been budgeted for the Corporation of St.

George, as he was concerned about developments on the Base lands at St.

David's competing with the Old Town.

Mr. Cox hoped that when Government bought equipment it did so through competitive bidding and was not simply "talking to...friends''.

Shadow Transport Minister Mr. Dennis Lister said he was unhappy about a format change in the estimates book, which resulted in much less detail being provided.

There used to be "a full breakdown'' of current account expenses, Mr. Lister said. This year, it was "basically two or three lines'' -- employee expenses, other operational expenses, and Government grants.

In one of the Transport departments, there was a 181 percent increase, and all it said was "other operational expenses'', Mr. Lister complained.

This was the Opposition's "one opportunity'' to scrutinise funds, and he hoped this year's estimates book would not set a precedent.

Management and Technology Minister the Hon. Grant Gibbons said many Bermudians working at the Base -- firefighters for example -- had been hired by Government's Base contractor. As for getting information from Bermudians working at the Base, some had provided it voluntarily, but many were still employed by the US Navy and would be "in a delicate situation'', Dr. Gibbons said.

Dr. Gibbons said he had done his best to keep the House up to date on Base developments but would find out whether a more comprehensive report was possible.

On the question of St. George's, Dr. Gibbons said the Base team had been in discussion with the Mayor of St. George and was sensitive to the concerns Mr.

Cox had raised.

Dr. Saul , responding to Mr. Lister 's concern about the Budget estimates book, said he did not think MPs wanted to see line items for expenses like telephones and newspapers, because any department could move such expenses around in any case.

He was willing to provide details during the Budget debate if asked. Moving to the Accountant General department, Dr. Saul congratulated Ms Heather Matthews on the job she was doing since taking over. She and her staff of 40 collected revenues for Government "in the nicest possible way''.

He noted that administration expenses had fallen nearly $200,000, mainly through more efficient operation, like lower overtime costs.

Under revenues, Dr. Saul said Government used to take all the profits made by the BMA, but starting this year would only take $700,000 and leave remaining profits for the BMA to build up its reserves, currently at about $9 million.

Mr. Cox also complimented Ms Matthews, but said Government perhaps did her an injustice when it appointed her without first having a management audit done.

The person she replaced left the office "in a way it perhaps should not have been done professionally'', he said.

She found a staff shortage, for one thing, he said.

The Auditor was still behind in getting out the annual Auditor's reports, Mr.

Cox said. The public was still waiting for the report from 1990.

Mr. Cox said he agreed with allowing the BMA to retain a share of its profit, and saw the move as a step toward the BMA becoming the Country's central bank.

Such a regulator was needed to protect against a bank collapse, like the one seen in London recently.

Mr. Reginald Burrows (PLP), who until recently was a long-time member of the public accounts committee, was also concerned about the delay in the tabling of the Country's audited accounts.

"The public accounts committee is the watchdog of the way Government spends the public funds,'' he said. If the accounts were seven years out of date, the spending was "a fait accompli''.

Dr. Saul said it was not the Accountant General's department that was tardy.

The audit department was free of the Ministry of Finance, but was now up to full staff. He expected three or four audit reports would soon be tabled at the same time.

Moving on, Dr. Saul praised the Customs department, the single biggest earner of Government revenue.

He then moved to the Post Office, which included the philatelic department.

Dr. Saul said the Stamp Design Advisory Committee had come up with an idea which could give visitors "a double whammy'' when they paid the recently-increased $20 departure tax to leave the Country.

Government was moving to a voucher system to avoid problems at the Airport.

The committee had mentioned that in the 1920s and 1930s an attractive stamp had been used to pay the "head tax'' for departing visitors, which started at five shillings and gradually rose to one pound.

The stamps were very attractive, and were now in great demand from collectors, who in some cases paid thousands of dollars for them.

The committee had recommended a similar $20 stamp for the departure tax, bearing the image of the Queen. The stamp would be cancelled and become the property of the visitor, who might later be able to sell it to a collector.

This plan "will be a winner'', Dr. Saul predicted.

On the capital side, Dr. Saul said Government had budgeted funds for new post offices in Paget and Mangrove Bay.

Mr. Cox said he was "happy to see that at long last the people of Sandys are being considered for a new post office'' at Mangrove Bay.

But he was concerned about a rumour the Somerset Police would be moving to HMS Malabar after the departure of the Royal Navy. Could that move allow more room for the Post Office? he wondered.

Mr. Tim Smith (UBP) said he was a strong advocate of measuring performance within the Post Office.

He believed the maximum length of time it should take for a letter to be delivered should be publicised, perhaps through the media.

Other performance targets, such as queuing times, should also be publicised.

That way the public would know the standards the Post Office was setting for itself. And it could be assessed by them.

Dr. Saul said mail was generally delivered very quickly.

When letters failed to reach their destination, this was because the address was incomplete.

With mail coming from abroad, there was an element of luck, however, over the speed of delivery.

A lot depended on what plane the mail was on, and whether it was on a direct flight or not.

If, for instance, a letter from London came to Bermuda via Boston or New York there would be some delay.

Weather was also a factor in determining speed of delivery from overseas.

Dr. Saul went on to recommend the use of International Data Express for sending packages abroad.

Turning to the Department of Statistics, Dr. Saul said there had been dramatic changes here over the last 10 years.

He pointed out the responsibility for the manpower survey had been turned over to this department.

And, said Dr. Saul, this had resulted in a higher degree of statistical analysis through the use of computers.

The survey would be incorporating a racial component, enabling Government to make better policy decisions.

For example, it would be useful in dealing with the "glass ceiling'' in the workplace.

Dr. Saul heaped praise on the way the department was run, saying it bore comparison with any other one in the British Commonwealth.

Mr. Cox agreed the department was well run, saying he found the Bermuda Digest of Statistics and the household survey very useful.

"To come to this House and make intelligent debate one needs up to date information.

"I am particularly glad the manpower survey is being transferred to this department.'' Opposition House leader Mr. Reginald Burrows said the department was one Bermudians could be proud of.

In answer to a question by Shadow Health Minister Mr. Nelson Bascome , Dr.

Saul said the department never carried out surveys for the United Bermuda Party.

Social Insurance Department staff highly praised by Saul It strictly handled Government surveys.

Turning to the Department of Social Insurance, Dr. Saul said 29 people staffed it.

A number of the department's duties were enshrined by law.

The department was responsible for administering and developing the Government's social insurance programmes, including contributory and non-contributory old age pensions, war pensions and hospital insurance.

Dr. Saul explained money put aside for portability claims covered a category of persons going abroad for hospital treatment.

He went on to highlight the increasing amount collected in social insurance contributions, which had gone up from $34 million to $49.7 million over the last four years.

This reflected the vibrant nature of the Bermuda economy.

Dr. Saul praised the work of the department staff, saying: "I take my hat off to them for the excellent job they do.'' Mr. Cox wondered whether the department was overstaffed, and also expressed concern that some people, such as war veterans, may not be receiving benefits -- because they were unaware they were entitled to them.

It was important to ensure information on benefits was well distributed.

Government backbencher Mr. John Barritt asked: "What relief is there for employees who find themselves with large medical bills and no insurance?'' Shadow Minister of Delegated Affairs Mrs. Lois Browne Evans and Mr. Burrows voiced concern about hospital insurance costs facing the elderly.

It was proving difficult for some senior citizens to meet premiums.

They wondered whether such costs could be scaled down for those aged 75 and over.

Dr. Saul said Government was well aware of the need for benefits to increase as a means of offsetting rises in the Hospital Insurance Plan (HIP).

He stressed the lion's share of hospital costs was picked up by taxpayers.

Dr. Saul continued by declaring it was a criminal offence for employers not to pay out for insurance after making deductions from employees' salaries.

That kind of behaviour, however, was decreasing following firm action from the department.

Those who continued to flout the law in this way faced prosecution, Dr. Saul warned.

He added Government could give some concessions to those who faced big bills, and suddenly found they were without insurance.

Dr. Saul then turned to the Tax Commissioner department, saying it was staffed by 17 people.

The department brought in more than $120 million in revenue.

Dr. Saul stressed the Tax Commissioner and his team went about their job in a very humane and understanding way.

They also ensured companies, when facing cash problems, were put on a fair repayment schedule.

While nobody liked paying taxes, they were a fact of life in sustaining a sophisticated economy like Bermuda's.

On the Registrar of Companies, Dr. Saul said this department had a staff of 22, and was a "direct line of communication to the international business community''.

He also highlighted the work of the Insurance Advisory Committee which carefully vetted companies wanting to register in Bermuda.

The committee was made up 30 men and women, Bermudians and non-Bermudians, who worked together to vet each application.

Such was his confidence in the committee, Dr. Saul said he never went against its recommendations.

Dr. Saul continued by applauding current Registrar of Companies, Mr. Malcolm Butterfield, who had decided to leave Government service.

He said Mr. Butterfield had served Bermuda excellently.

But in Mr. Kymn Astwood, Bermuda had a first class candidate to replace Mr.

Butterfield.

Dr. Saul said Mr. Astwood had been trained to take over the job.

He added Mr. Butterfield's department was also involved in the winding-up of companies, and liquidation.

Because of his efforts, however, a number of companies had not been wound up, said Dr. Saul.

Dr. Saul also spoke of moves to market Bermuda in the international community.

Some $600,000 had been earmarked for this.

It was important, said Dr. Saul, for the international sector to know exactly where Bermuda was.

He went on to spotlight an incremental increase in the number of international businesses incorporating in Bermuda.

In December 1992, 7,271 companies were registered. This compared with 7,578 in 1993 and 8,224 last year.

Mr. Cox emphasised the importance of training people for jobs within Government departments.

This would ensure a person could step into someone's shoes whenever a vacancy arose.

Dr. Saul then concentrated on the Rent Commissioner's office, which was set up in 1978 as part of a crackdown on rent gouging.

The question now was: Had the department outlived its usefulness? Dr. Saul said the answer was no, adding: "It is not anachronistic yet.'' One big misconception about the Rent Commissioner's office was that it meant rents could not be increased.

This was not so, and last year there were 255 cases of landlords and tenants mutually agreeing on rent rises.

There was also not one application to the Commissioner for an undesirable tenant to be removed.

Mr. Cox agreed the Commissioner's office still served a purpose.

But he added, landlords had probably found another means of getting rid of undesirable tenants.

He also called on some landlords to be more businesslike in ensuring tenants did not get too far behind with the rent.

Government backbencher Mr. John Barritt said landlords should be aware of their obligation to tell the Commissioner's office about rent increases.

If increases were put into effect, but not approved, landlords could find themselves in the position of having to pay money back to tenants.

Turning to the Computer Systems and Services, Dr. Saul said this department was manned by 34 people, 29 of whom were Bermudian.

He praised the staff for their skill in handling a very technical job, and demonstrating expertise with computers.

All the data for the Budget, for instance, was compiled with the use of a computer.

Dr. Saul then touched on his Ministry's head, entitled "Interest on Debt''.

Under this, funds are allocated for debt interest on long term borrowing.

For 1995/96, it is estimated $8,210,000 will be spent in this area.

Dr. Saul said Bermuda was going a little further into debt, and this would be the pattern of the future.

Borrowing, however, was only for capital items.

Finally, Dr. Saul turned to Government's Sinking Fund, saying Bermuda should be proud of this.

The fund provided for the repayment of long term borrowing.

Every year an equivalent of 2.5 percent of the national debt outstanding would be set aside, said Dr. Saul.

This fund was enshrined in law, and was a key reason why Bermuda was given an "AA1'' economic rating.

Bermuda should brag about the fund, and other countries should set up similar repayment mechanisms.

Such funds helped financial stability, and militated against wild gyrations in the stock markets.

Mr. Cox said he was solidly behind the Sinking Fund.

Ministry of Finance 1995-96 estimates Ministry responsibility: To supervise the economy of Bermuda generally and to provide over-all financial management and control of all Government activities.

Budget estimate: $56,163,000 (last year $57,447,000) Budget allocation Ministry headquarters $1,252,000 Accountant General $20,624,000 Customs $7,133,000 Post Office $8,554,000 Statistics $1,125,000 Social Insurance $882,000 Tax Commissioner $873,000 Registrar of Companies $2,286,000 Rent Commissioner $188,000 Computer systems and services $2,661,000 Interest on debt $8,210,000 Contribution to sinking fund $2,375,000 Revenues $364,150,000