We have these ethnic divisions but independence will do nothing for that, in fact, it will exacerbate it. If you look at countries which have ethnic problems and have suddenly leapt to independence, you tell me if everything has suddenly become nice and calm or whether people have seen it as an opportunity for revenge and vindictiveness.

Q: Some of the anger from black people towards white people could be fuelled by the fact that there is this colonial presence. Do you not think some of this conflict might die down once some of these things were removed? A: Some people might be bothered by things which are cosmetic such as the claptrap of British imperialism so getting rid of them might sooth them. It may have a marginal effect because small things often do irritate people -- fair enough. But some of the other issues are economic issues. That's a far bigger deal. But you can't produce economic equality outside of a communistic regime so then the issue is these people have lots and these people have very little. What do you do about that? Traditionally it's been done by income tax with huge projects.

The biggest issue is economic equality. I recognise there have been huge inequalities but I don't want to see the pendulum swing to everyone's detriment. I want it to come down in the middle. At some stage you have to forget what happened in the past, produce a fairer society. For example with payroll tax I was a great supporter of extending payroll tax to exempt companies -- because Bermudians working for local companies were hit with an unfair burden. People have this idea in their mind that independence will produce peace and prosperity but we already have that. They take the view that it will right all the wrongs. But in itself independence will do nothing. I am nonplused when people say if we go to independence I am going to have a better job and a better house.

Q: I have never heard anyone make that argument.

A: It's implicit! Independence is going to solve our problems! Look at that letter in The Royal Gazette from Muriel Wade Smith. She says the PLP had promised a better Bermuda. And what did she say? "There is no better Bermuda'' Why? "Because you did not give me a high paying Government job.'' That's how every PLP supporter feels. You promised a better Bermuda, and a better Bermuda is a better Bermuda for me, personally, my bank account, so I can buy a better car and get a bigger house. People talk in euphemisms. People say if we go independent we will get a better Bermuda. To your average guy in the street it means better for him.

Q: Is it your fear that if that guy gets a better Bermuda it will be at the expense of someone else? A: It's one of two things. You are either holding out false hope or you are somehow going to give to them by taking from somebody else. We have seen that with the PLP getting jobs for the boys. The PLP are now in political difficulty in that a lot of their supporters do not see themselves as having gained -- Dr. Eva Hodgson, Dr. Wade Smith. So the PLP either have to give something to these people or make a bigger promise to cover up the promise they didn't keep. So they can say if we get independence we will really help you because we will really be in charge. We won't have to worry about the stupid Governor or the stupid British -- we will be able to do whatever we want. One more step and it will be milk and honey.

Q: Is Bermuda now stuck in a cycle because the PLP didn't trust Sir John Swan to get independence and now you are making the same point about the PLP. You are not against it in principle but you don't want them getting total power.

You can see Bermuda carrying on for another 40 years this way? Isn't it time to take that element out of it and agree on a political structure where no one can dominate and then you go towards independence together? A: That's a very good point if you can approach things on a bi-partisan basis but the litmus test has been these constitutional issues. The PLP has not been willing to do it on a bi-partisan basis. When the PLP say there will be no constitutional conference they are basically saying we are not prepared to go forward on a bi-partisan basis.

Q: Do you think the next election will be fought on independence? A: I think there is a wing within the PLP that want more gradually and there is another faction. Renee has said we want it we want it now, and nothing is going to stop us.

Q: Where is the UBP on this issue? A: I think we have a range of views. Generally I think the balance is against it because they all know if the PLP take us to it, it will strengthen their hand. If we are going to do it, we want us to it.